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CNN SHOWDOWN: IRAQ
'Sound-Off'
Aired March 14, 2003 - 12:29 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: A weekend of high-level, high-stakes talks. That's what we're anticipating in the coming days. Perhaps then a vote, maybe then again, maybe not a vote. Here to sound off on all the latest developments, in New York, Katrina Vanden Heuvel. She's the editor of the magazine "The Nation." And in Washington, Ramesh Ponurru. He's the senior editor of another magazine, "The National review." Thanks to both of you for joining us.
Ramesh, it seems like there's a last-minute diplomatic flurry, an effort to see if they can try to work something out. I have to tell you most officials here in Washington are not very optimistic they will.
But what do you maybe of this decision for the president to go to the Azores on Sunday to meet with the leaders of Britain and Spain?
RAMESH PONNURU, "NATIONAL REVIEW": Well, obviously the administration is doing what it can to support its -- those government leaders abroad who have been supportive of the administration's policy. I think that this may be a miscalculation, that this dragging out of the process has not actually served the administration well, but you understand their desire to support Blair.
BLITZER: Let me bring in Katrina now, and I'll bring you in Katrina with this e-mail that we received from Fred in Wisconsin, because it's right on message. Fred asked this, "What do Tony Blair, Jose Maria Aznar and President Bush hope to accomplish with this meeting in the Azores on Sunday? Haven't they been working on a final pursuit of the U.N. resolution on Iraq for months? What is the point of more talk?
KATRINA VANDEN HEUVEL, "THE NATION": The point of more talk is to avert a war, an unnecessary war, war of choice, not necessity. What the real story is, Wolf, that the U.N. inspections process is working, and that Iraq poses no direct security threat to the United States or the world community.
What we're seeing is so extraordinary that with all the arm twisting, the bullying and the bribery at the United Nations in these last weeks, that we see the United States has been unable to secure a majority of votes on the Security Council until now. They have an embattled ally in Tony Blair, who's twisting in the wind, who knows he can't go to war with only 19 percent of his country supporting this war. We see the enormous gap between the U.S. as the Bush administration's interest in war that the rest of the world, that most of the rest of the world does not want and does not believe is necessary for the security of the international order. BLITZER: Before I let Ramesh weigh in, you say bullying. But bribery, that's a strong word. On the basis of what are you accusing the Bush administration of engaging in bribery?
VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, I think that the loans and the offers of money for basing rights. I mean, this is kind of like in violation of what might be called the Foreign Bribery Act. And the disservice to the American people. Money to be paid to bring people on board for a war when that money could be used home for the enormous unmet needs of this country. I would call that a great disservice and form of bribery in the political sense of the term.
BLITZER: Ramesh, what do you call it?
PONNURO: Well, it turns out that liberals are against foreign aid in some circumstances, at least when it's serving American foreign policy, I guess.
Look, people have been demanding for over a year that the United States seek allies. They never said, but you can only seek allies in ways that we approve of, and it's completely reasonable for countries that are going to be economically affected by a war or by participation in a war to seek, to get some sort of support. I think that this is essentially a frivolous criticism.
BLITZER: Katrina, do you give President Bush any credit whatsoever for going the extra mile on the diplomatic front? He could have gone to war weeks ago if he wanted to. U.S. troops were ready. But he's trying to do the best by giving the Iraqis every opportunity to comply.
VANDEN HEUVEL: I think at every point, Wolf, that this administration has tried to undermine the U.N. inspections process. And what we're seeing now, is I believe the United States desperately needs Britain in order to avoid the charge, the real charge, that this is a U.S. war, a U.S. war. They need Britain to pretend that it is an alliance of the willing. And without Britain, it looks totally unilateral. So I think this administration has really sought war all along, and the shifting justifications for this war. The U.N. is on board for disarmament disarmament. They understand the United States, the Bush administration, is more interested in geopolitical change, pursuit of empire, pursuit of remaking the Middle East in its own image, and regime change, which is not part of the U.N. resolution.
BLITZER: Ramesh, let me read this e-mail we received from Laura in Oregon. She writes this -- "Antiwar protesters have been criticized for being unpatriotic. Every real patriotic American should be doing everything they can to prevent this country from embarking on a dangerous course of action, which will cost the lives of our troops and destroy any chance for world peace and security."
Go ahead, Ramesh.
PONNURO: Well, I don't think that people who are against the war are necessarily unpatriotic, although I do think some of them are. But I think they're foolish. I do think the threat that Saddam Hussein represents is real, and that regime change is going to be the answer here. I don't think that no matter -- I don't think that any inspections process, no matter how beefed up, can accomplish the goal of disarmament.
BLITZER: Are you saying, Ramesh, that Katrina is foolish?
PONNURO: On this issue, yes.
VANDEN HEUVEL: I'd like to respond simply by saying we've seen the emergence of another superpower. The global opinion is aligned against this war. But more interesting, this is not a Republicans conservative war. Former General Zinni, Admiral Crow, President Bush, the father himself, worried about the consequences of war. This is an extremist, radical war that will undermine U.S. security, instead of strengthening the international alliances we need to fight the real and grave threat of stateless terrorism at this perilous time.
BLITZER: Katrina and Ramesh, Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it right there.
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