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CNN SHOWDOWN: IRAQ
Interview With Relief Officials
Aired April 2, 2003 - 12:35 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's a hot topic raging through Washington's power halls. And on the ground as well in the Middle East, in the Persian Gulf throughout the region. Who should be in charge of the Iraq's humanitarian relief efforts and the reconstruction process of Iraq. Who should be calling all the shots, the military or civilian agencies? We'll be looking at all the possibilities.
Joining us from New York Mary Mcclymont, the CEO of Interaction; that's the largest alliance of U.S.-based relief organizations.
With me here is in Kuwait City is Major General Albert Whitley. He's the British coalition commander in charge of humanitarian and reconstruction efforts. Let me begin with you, general, and ask you, who should be in charge of this relief endeavor, which is obviously going to have to be huge?
MAJOR GENERAL ALBERT WHITLEY, BRITISH OFFICER DEPUTY COMMANDER: As soon as possible civilian agencies. In the mean time, though, we have a legal obligation to do it.
BLITZER: And how are you doing? What are you doing specifically? Are you bringing in civilian groups to help you?
WHITLEY: To a small degree. Many of them judge that the conditions are not right for that, in terms of their own security. So what we're doing is, we're taking supplies in or making supplies available.
BLITZER: Walk us through the process right now. You are in charge of the southern part of Iraq, from Umm Qasr up to Nasariyah and all the area in between. How are you doing?
WHITLEY: Just a small correction. I'm actually a British Officer Deputy Commander to the coalition forces. So I work for a U.S. three star American general.
BLITZER: You report to an American general.
WHITLEY: I work for an American general.
BLITZER: He's in charge of the ground forces.
WHITLEY: The whole ground campaign, yes.
BLITZER: Walk us through what you're doing. WHITLEY: First of all, we know quite a lot from information intelligence about the situation before we go in. We know already the water is disgusting, literally unhealthy.
BLITZER: Basra, Nasariyah?
WHITLEY: Everywhere in southern Iraq. There is no clean drinking water as you and I would define it. First thing we know is we've got to take that in. Second, we got to start sorting out the Iraqi systems as soon as we can. Again, we know apart from the few isolated areas within the areas we control, there isn't a real food problem. Where there is, we have to cope with our trucks, with either donated food or food we've already brought with us.
BLITZER: There was some reports that the Kuwaitis were sending water through a pipe that they opened up from Kuwait into southern Iraq.
WHITLEY: That's correct. They've donated the water. American Army engineer designed the system and U.K. British engineers built a system. That's producing 600,000 gallons of the cleanest water that that particular area has ever had for the last 12 years.
BLITZER: So basically, we're talking about how many people in the southern part of Iraq who need assistance desperately right now?
WHITLEY: Very few. They're existing on the water. They have been existing on it for the last 12 years. They have enough food. Very small populations indeed. Just off the top of my head, the people in Nasariyah and people in Najaf.
BLITZER: What about those pictures, very disturbing pictures, the trucks come in with the assistance and crowds swarm them. There's panic. And the strongest get the boxes, the weakest probably the most needy get nothing.
WHITLEY: Point of principle, that was a generosity of the Kuwaiti Red Crescent Organization. That's great. Was the aid distributed sensibly? Probably not, by any international standards. The third one, was it a bit of a (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Yes, but I have seen January sales in England that are worse than that.
BLITZER: All right. What about the whole issue of the Saddam Fedayeen, the Fedayeen Saddam, these guerrilla paramilitary groups supposedly going after civilians attempting to escape. How much of a problem, militarily, are these paramilitary for you and your humanitarian relief effort?
WHITLEY: It is a tactical problem that we're coping with. What I think is even more important is that the condition of fear that these people exist in, and once they are actually free they're difficulty and understanding the environment they're in. They still believe, and they're totally wrong, but they still believe, that Saddam will get them and he will conduct reprisals.
BLITZER: Are you surprised that these Shiite in the south, which were supposedly very anti-Saddam Hussein, they rose up against him a dozen years ago, are now sitting on the fence, reluctant to throw their hat into your coalition?
WHITLEY: No, for two reasons. One is they have been repressed for 12 years. Secondly, the last time they did it, Saddam got them. And they're worried that Saddam will get them again. Until they're absolutely convinced, and we're doing our very best to convince them, they will not make that move.
BLITZER: Is it happening?
WHITLEY: Slowly, it's a day by day growth. More and more confidence in themselves. We're seeing more and more groups surrender of their own, suicide bombers who decide to surrender instead of be a weapon of destruction. More and more people going about their normal business. Perhaps we will see it, and certainly most importantly of all, the people are giving us information on who the bad guys are and then we're getting them.
BLITZER: General Whitley, good luck to you and good luck to your humanitarian efforts.
WHITLEY: Thank you very much.
BLITZER: Let's speak to a civilian working on this same problem. Let's go back to New York, Mary Mcclymont with Interaction Organization. her organization represents some 160 non-governmental organizations. Let's get your perspective, Mary. What do you say to what you just heard from the British general here?
MARY MCCLYMONT, CEO INTERACTION ORGANIZATION: Well just as the general says Wolf, a very appropriately, the task of humanitarian relief operations belong in the hands of the civilians. They belong in the hands of the people who know how to do relief. As he also correctly states, in these very initial phases, as the U.S. and British military forces come in to control of territory, it is their obligation under humanitarian law to ensure that people get food and basic medal care and supplies. But at the end of the day, the overall relief operation as the areas become secure must be run by civilians. That is for any number of reasons, including the fact that they know how to do the job and they respect the importance of the independence of the relief workers on the ground.
BLITZER: Well, I think you and the general basically are in agreement. As long as the situation is militarily insecure, the military should be running this. Once it becomes militarily safe, then NGO's, non-governmental organizations, like yours can then come in and take charge. Is that -- I don't see a big difference between you and the general.
MCCLYMONT: Let me add just a further point Wolf. It is really, as the general noted, up to the NGO's and United Nations agencies to decide when they can come in. They must have unhindered access to civilians. The NGO's, the various humanitarian actors, have different abilities to operate in more secure or less secure environments. For example the International Committee of the Red Cross was able to go into Basra and try to work on the water treatment plant that is so critical be restored. So the bottom line, is as the general also said. It's really up to the humanitarians to decide when it is sufficiently secure for them to be able to go in.
I want to underscore there are NGO's and the International Committee of the Red Cross who are operating in situations that are very difficult. They are in Baghdad. Baghdad is being bombed. Still in all, there are NGO's and others who are working there. It varies greatly, in terms of the level of ability of the NGO's and humanitarians to work in different environments. It's really up to them to decide that.
BLITZER: When do you think that it would be safe for these NGO's to go into Iraq assuming that the war is over, I guess it's a big assumption, but relatively soon. At what point would you expect large numbers of NGO's to start coming into Iraq to deal with the humanitarian relief efforts?
MCCLYMONT: As I noted, Wolf, there are a number of NGO's and humanitarian workers up in the north and in Baghdad. With respect to the south, the way the process works is that the disaster assistance response teams of the U.S. government go in and look to determine the level of security. They do a humanitarian assessment. Similarly, the United Nations goes in with its security team and does it own assessment. Both of those parties have determined that it's okay to go into Umm Qasr, the sea port. So one hopes soon workers can go in there. But I think it will be a gradual process to the south as each of the areas becomes more secure. Not an all or nothing, all of a sudden everything becomes secure. It's a gradual process. The NGO's, and I know the other humanitarian actors, the United Nations agencies, are keen to get in. We do think that --
BLITZER: I know there were some -- Mary, I was going to interrupt and say, I know there were some tensions, strains between the NGO's and U.S./ British military on the ground here over some issues. Have those been resolved, basically, or are you still more or less occasionally on different pages?
MCCLYMONT: No, it's very important to work out some of these critically important operational issues. One of the questions was the ability of the NGO's to get into the country and we had talked to the U.S. Military, or tried to talk to them for a number of months to determine if we were going to need particular kinds of ID cards. So suddenly we realized yes we do. And it's been two weeks now that we have been working on the ground to try to get clarification around that issue. What kinds of ID cards? Because that goes to the heart of the matter in terms of access of the NGO's, which is a critical feature. That's one of the logistical issues that had come up.
Wolf, I all just wanted to emphasize. You had asked earlier about how soon this process can happen and the full relief operation be under way. We do hope very much that it will be the United Nations that is seen as the overall humanitarian coordinator for Iraq. They've got a tremendous operation underway. They're used to working with the NGO's and they with each other, and we think it is very important that they be deemed the overall humanitarian coordinator for Iraq, given their expertise, given their ability to bring in a lot of different kinds of international actors and we hope that will happen.
BLITZER: Well, I'm not sure the Bush administration necessarily agrees with you on that last point, but we'll have to leave that for another discussion. Mary, thank you very much. Mary Mcclymont represents a group of NGO's, non-governmental organizations, trying to work in Iraq to deal with the humanitarian relief effort.
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